Winter League WhatsApp discussion

Winter League

The Management Committee of the Winter League is meeting today (Friday 12 July) to recommence their deliberations on a new format for the League for next season. Two hours were spent last Friday (5 July) trying to work out how to change 6 divisions of 9 teams (54 teams in total) into 8 divisions. Two options were on the table for discussion. It became clear that neither option ticked all the boxes so members were asked to reconvene this Friday with any new ideas on how to move to 8 divisions.

Two more options have been submitted by two Management Committee members and these have been circulated to all MC members in advance of today's meeting.

Alan Hobson reminded me that we had discussed this problem earlier in the year when the HuddWeb WhatsApp Group tossed the problem and potential solutions around over a three week period from mid-February onwards. Below is a copy of that discussion for your enlightenment and to share the difficulty that has now emerged as forecast last February.

WhatsApp Discussion (19 February 2024 to 12 March 2024)

JEFF JACKLIN

It has been suggested that I should start a discussion on the format of the divisions for next season.

This is because of mounting speculation about the number of teams to be relegated from each division next season.

Without knowing how many teams we will have in the League no decisions can be taken at this time but it might be interesting and helpful to learn what bowlers think about the situation.

The facts are ...

The host greens are increasingly asking for the season to end by the end of February so they have a full month to work on them ready for the summer season.

As 9 teams in a division makes an 18-week season that is really pushing the timescales back especially when the bad weather intervenes.

With 8 teams in a division that makes a 14 week season which fits in well with an end of February finish.

Getting from 9 down to 8 is the problem.

Our working assumption is that we will have 10 new teams for next season (that is our best guess at this time).

That would give us 64 teams. That means 8 divisions of 8 teams.

Assuming all the new teams go into the bottom 2 divisions (which they wont as some will rank much higher than that).

That would mean to get to 8 teams in each division that 3 teams would be relegated from Divisions 1.

Then 4 teams would be relegated from Division 2.

Followed by 5 teams being relegated from Division 3.

Then 6 teams relegated from Division 4.

Then 7 teams relegated from Division 5 and finally 8 teams drop out of Division 6.

we are also assuming that no teams will drop out of the League (only one team has withdrawn in 4 seasons)

I am also assuming at this point that the top two teams in each division will get promoted. It is in our rules and I think it is the proper thing to do but any change would offer some scope to the handling of the relegation problem.

I share the problem with you.

Nothing can be done until the actual number and quality of the new teams is known but if we are to stick with divisions of 8 then some teams are going to be disappointed by being relegated even though they finished well clear of the relegation places. Over to you.

LORRAINE HIRST

You could maybe look at how many games teams have won, or lost. There are quite a few who have won 5 games or less, so maybe a lower division will suit them better?

ALAN HOBSON

I have nothing against the idea of having divisions of eight teams rather than nine teams especially if this helps green keepers. I am concerned about the impact on this season’s Winter League. Relegating three teams from division one is maybe not that dramatic but by the time you reach division five then seven teams have to be relegated.

This means that if you are not one of the two teams that are promoted then you are relegated!! A look at the division five table shows that Slaithwaite are virtually certain to be promoted but five other teams are in with a chance. Members of those teams think they are in a battle for promotion but it could be that one of them is going to be promoted and the other four relegated. This may come as a bit of a shock to the system!

There are similar stories in other divisions.  To get round this I would suggest that the Winter League follows the example of the Huddersfield Vets. They said in advance of their 2023 season that they were going to even up the leagues and this could mean up to four teams from some divisions being relegated. Teams knew what was going to happen. My team was one of those relegated even though we finished fourth from bottom but no complaints because we knew that was going to happen. I think the Winter League should do the same and say in advance of the 2024-25 season that it is going to move to divisions of eight teams.

It might also consider only promoting one team rather than two teams as this would make the effect less dramatic. A nine team division involves 16 rounds of matches whereas an eight team division involves 14 rounds of matches. Could the two additional rounds not be played on another day in October or November when the weather is not too bad?

I note that Netherton seem to be having three match days this week with two rounds of matches and a Winter Cup day. Perhaps also maybe many clubs are not bothered about promotion and relegation issues and do not care which division they are in.

How about asking clubs with a simple question on HuddWeb along the lines of “Do you wish the move to divisions of eight teams to take place in the 2024/25 season or the 2025/26 season?”

BOB HAIGH

Following on from Alan's post. While speaking to a few people around the greens, a lot seem more interested in what day they play on, than what venue or even what division. It may be that some would welcome dropping down a division or two and volunteer to do so. Perhaps along with Alan's question, we should also ask clubs if game days and venues are deal breakers for them rather than the title of the division in which they play.

DAVID FROST

Just thinking about the Winter League situation with new teams & leagues.

Would there be any mileage in thinking opposite to adding new divisions to bottom of league list, ie call the current league something like premier league and then slot an empty division in its position which would then be the new div 1

Then you have the new div 1 with 8 empty slots for poss rejigging teams either up or down with its knock in effect. May then be easier to slot in any new teams that on paper May need to be in higher or lower leagues?

Just a thought.

BOB HAIGH

That sounds to be an interesting proposal that could be worth looking into. If I was good enough to be in Div 1, I wouldn't object to being called the Premier League, and that would create a new Div 1 with more upward movement of teams available which I think teams would find more palatable than enforced downward movement.

ALAN HOBSON

I agree. It would allow those teams that have been very dominant in the lower divisions to find a division commensurate with their ability and reduce the relegation pressure.

JEFF JACKLIN

An early warning of a reorganisation of divisions this season was likely was first issued last October.

See https://www.huddweb.co.uk/post/relegation-warning-to-all-winter-league-teams

BOB HAIGH

Fair point Jeff, the warning was posted in October but it does say stay out of the  bottom 3, and in your initial post on here, you imply up to 7 or 8 teams could be relegated.

JEFF JACKLIN

I'm not convinced that introducing a new Premier Division would actually solve the problem.

So lets take that idea a step further.

Anyone prepared to use that model to put the existing league positions into a 2024-25 format?

Assume the current league positions are the end of season league positions and then put all current 54 teams into that new structure with divisions of 8 teams.

Then add 10 new teams into that structure.

Then tell me how that differs from a Divisions 1 to 8.

BOB HAIGH

As I understand it, the plan is to rename Div 1 as the Premier League and then introduce a new DIVISION ONE between the existing Division 2 and the P L. And then host greens permitting a new division at the bottom called Div 7. So there would be Premier Div, then Divisions 1 to 7. DIVISION ONE at this point would be empty and would then create room to move some teams up the league structure rather than the blunt weapon of just relegation.

ALAN HOBSON

My apologies for the length of this post but Jeff did ask if anyone was prepared to use a Premier League model. I think Bob is very much on the right lines. It could work something like this.

Stage One:Three teams are relegated from the present division one and two teams are promoted from the present division two. That makes 8 teams in our present division one/future premier league.

Stage 2: A new division 1 is created. This consists of the 3 teams relegated from the present division one plus Hanging Heaton, Marsh United, Slaithwaite and Linthwaite Hall. These four teams were new to the Winter League in 2023/24 and clearly too good for the divisions that they were put in.  This gives seven teams in new division one for the moment and so scope to add another one either by a new team coming in or some additional promotion.

Stage 3: Present division two based at Springwood also now has only 7 teams in it and so scope for a new team or additional promotion to new division 3.

Stage 4: In present division 3 if the bottom two are relegated and the top two from division four are promoted then there will be seven teams in this new division four as Hanging Heaton and Marsh have gone to new division one. Again scope for a new team or additional promotion.

Stage 5: In present division 4 the top two have been  promoted from it  and the bottom two from present division 3 were relegated to it. If two teams were relegated from it and the second placed team (Slaithwaite have already gone) in present division 5 (Springwood C C) were promoted to it then this new division four would have 8 teams

Stage 6

From present division 5  Slaithwaite have gone and Springwood C have been promoted This gives plenty of scope to either keep some teams that should be relegated from division 5 or some from division 6 that should not really be promoted scope to make up an eight team new division 5 (see details below)

Stage 7

Present division 6 ends up with 7 teams in it with scope for an additional team.

So How would it all look (assuming present league positions)

Premier Division

Thorpe Green A

Lower Hopton

New Mill A

Kirkheaton Con

Lindley BC

Clayton West

Cowcliffe

Denby Dale

Division One

Meltham

Golcar Lib

Lowerhouses A

Hanging Heaton

Marsh United

Slaithwaite

Linthwaite Hall

Scope for one additional team

Division Two

Lindley Lib A

Lindley BC B

Milnsbridge A

Lockwood Con A

Brockholes A

Springwood A (could be relegated)

Hudd Rec A (could be relegated)

Scope for one additional team or further promotion

Division Three

Milnsbridge B (could be promoted)

Lindley Lib B (could be promoted)

Dalton

Thorpe Green B

Rastrick

Thorpe Green C

New Mill B

Scope for additional team or further promotion

Division Four

Primrose Hill Lib

Paddock I&C

Lowerhouses B

Netherton Con A

Milnsbridge C

Lindley Lib C

Kirkheaton C&BC

Springwood C

Division Five

Jackson Bridge

Brockholes B

Almondbury BC B

Outlane

Mirfield

Hudd Rec B (could be relegated)

Netherton Con B (could be relegated)

New Mill C

Division 6

Cowcliffe B (could be promoted)

Huddersfield RUFC (could be promoted)

Lockwood Con B

Golcar C&BC

Broad Oak

Kirkheaton Con B

Mirfield B

Scope for new team

My thanks to David Frost for the Premier League type suggestion. Better than relegating 7 teams from present  division 5?

JEFF JACKLIN

OK so far although some of these rapid promotions need challenging.

Now put host greens against each division.

For this exercise assume that one new host green confirmed of Cowcliffe on a Tuesday.

ALAN HOBSON

Premier Division: Cowcliffe

Division One: Milnsbridge or Springwood

Division Two: Springwood or Milnsbridge

Division Three: Lindley Lib

Division Four Primrose Hill

Division Five Netherton

Division Six: Huddersfield RUFC

LORRAINE HIRST

I think that system looks better than the previous one, where 6 or

7 teams would be relegated. Don’t like the idea of moving the premier division to Cowcliffe on Tuesday’s though, we like our Wednesday’s at Milnsbridge.

FOOTNOTE

If you would like to join in such discussions in the future then you need to become a member of the WhatsApp Group. Email me at jefftheref2000@yahoo.co.uk and I will send you a joining link. Be aware that you can only view topics posted after your joining date and there is no facility in WhatsApp to view any earlier postings.